Once president of the senate of the short-lived Third Republic, Dr. Iyorchia Ayu, a former university don, has been involved in politics since the return of democracy in 1999 and had served in four key ministries at the cabinet level. In this interview with TORDUE SALEM, the former lecturer-activist who is now a chieftain of the Action Congress of Nigeria (ACN), ?x-rays the nation’s journey since independence . . .
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Nigeria is 51-years old. Can you critically analyse the Nigerian State, so far??
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First of all, I want to congratulate Nigerians on their long march as a nation. We are 51 years. However, from the date of independence, as a country, we are much older than 51. Nigeria, as we all know, became amalgamated in 1914, and we have struggled with the building of a nation-state since that time. By 1952, many of the regions were already operating almost as independent countries and national leaders came together to ask for independence. They had hopes, and aspirations for the future. The independence was as a result of all the hopes and aspirations ?they had for the country. From the development programmes of the various regions and the country as a whole, I think we started very well, especially from the 1950s.?
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?In spite of the various crises we went through, there was a lot of promise, with very little resources, because then the resource base was basically agricultural, yet very monumental projects were being undertaken, as well as roads, hotels, universities, railways and everything.?
We were moving very well, but unfortunately, we got interrupted by an unfortunate civil war which lasted for 30 months. Under the leadership of Gen. Yakubu Gowon (the Head of State then), we survived it, and I think we should give credit to Nigeria . Not many countries survive civil wars at their early stages of emergence as a nation state. So, we have to give ourselves credit for that; we did well by surviving the civil war.
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It is on record that we are the only country in the world that has remained unified after a civil war. No conquered, no vanquished, and we are all Nigerians. Since then, the social fabric of the country has integrated very rapidly. The military interrupted at various times and they set us back a lot, because by now, we would have been as far ahead as Malaysia. Singapore became independent of Malaysia in 1965 and all these countries have moved very fast, but series of military interventions and consistent changes in programmes and leadership has created instability, and that instability has not helped Nigeria. ?
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Presently, Nigerians are lamenting the lack of progress as it should have been. So far, we have not done too badly, in spite of our own self-demolition. We have not done too badly. You can see that the number of highly educated people has increased tremendously. The number of tarred roads and basic infrastructure has increased, though most of them were poorly constructed and maintained, and the health services have considerably improved —the number of hospitals, doctors and all that, but the problem has remained the lack of proper management of these numerous improvements on what Nigeria should have been today. As a result, we are facing difficulties today. The quality of leadership, particularly, has been very poor since the 1980s. We have not had the kind of visionary leadership that will inspire Nigerians. On a psychological level today, you find that there is a lot of hopelessness. Nigerians do not believe that they have the kind of leadership that can move them forward. It is not as if we have performed poorly in a particular area, but I believe that we can do better.?
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How can we go about improving the leadership of this country? ??
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Some of us believe, strongly, that in spite of the kind of democracy that we have practiced so far, a continuation of the democratic system will ultimately bring quality leadership, not only at the Federal level, but at the various states, as well. We have 36 states and 774 local governments. The quality of the leadership at the local government level has been very poor. That is one tier of government that has been very close to the people, but so far, it has performed poorly, as a result of the interference of the state governors.?
At the level of state governors, you will find that not every state government has failed, and that is the character of federations. As a federation, you are bound to have uneven development.?
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For a state like Lagos, which has been acclaimed to be on the right track, thanks to two democratic governors, Bola Tinubu and Babatunde Fashola have done very well, by literally changing the landscape of Lagos, including the psychology of the people of Lagos. The current governor of Rivers State, Chibuike Amaechi, from what everybody have observed, is doing a very good job. You can mention a couple of governors in various states. Perhaps, of the 36 states governors, about 40 per cent or so are doing very good, but there are many who are completely disastrous.?
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?However, if the Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC) were to sit up to be assisted by various civil societies and are able to conduct serious, credible elections, genuine leaders will emerge in the various states, and at the federal level. People will know that you will be rejected by your people, even if you are a sitting governor, and I believe that this is what we need to continue to fight for. Greater activities from various civil organisations, various political parties fighting for internal democracy and ultimately, the INEC organising itself better. When my former university colleague, Prof. Attahiru Jega was appointed, many of us had a lot of hope that the INEC would improve. Unfortunately, one tree cannot make a forest, and so far, he has not shown the capacity to understand or control the various layers of the INEC. ?So, we still have a serious problem with the INEC that needs quality people. We need to bring in better people to improve the quality of the INEC. We need to look at the problem of the security services and their role in the various elections. In some instances, they actually helped in rigging elections. They should be able to let Nigerians express themselves. and elect those who they believe can deliver the dividends of democracy. I believe that if some of these corrections are effected, Nigerians will begin to elect genuine leaders.?
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?We want leaders with vision, those who will work as Babatunde Fashola is doing in Lagos. India had this problem of democracy, struggling here and there, but today, they have moved forward. Some states in India have moved very far ahead of others, thus the Indian nation-state is moving. The economy is moving faster than that of Pakistan (which has continually gone from one military rule to the other). So, I think what we need is a continuation on the path of genuine democracy. I want Nigerians to remain relentless, not to give up, in spite of the obvious disappointments which we have witnessed in the last decade. Nigerians must come together to fight for real democracy, because you don’t get real democracy, until you fight for it.
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Some people have argued that until the opposition came to power in India, she did not improve. You are a member of the opposition, so what are you people doing to strengthen that line of thinking?
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? ? ? ? ?First of all, those who read the history of India and the rise of the opposition sometimes don’t get it right. I will explain: in every federation, some states move faster. In fact, a state like Kerala in India, moves faster, because their own system is different from that of the rest of India .?
In a country like Nigeria you are also bound to have individual states that will set the pace of development, perhaps pull the others along. People are beginning to visit Lagos now to see how Lagos got it right. I lived in Lagos for one year and I did not believe that you could in any way transform Lagos, because it was almost impossible to get the ‘Lagosian’ to do the right thing. Presently, there are no ‘area boys’ in the streets, which before now had been terrible places. Now, you can pass through those places within two minutes. Slums are being cleared, roads are being improved. Hospitals being built, and Lagosians are beginning to value democracy.?
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Generally, I think that is what we need to do. As an opposition, it is a very positive thing that the star example happens to be one of the biggest states in the country, one controlled by the opposition. It shows what we can do if we take over power.?
?I believe that an opposition does not take power only in one or two elections. It grows. It is left for opposition parties to come together and grow. Once you have one dominant party, the tendency is for the leadership of that party to relax and imagine that they can always win, but if you have a situation in which you know you can lose elections if you don’t do well, you have to deliver, give something back to the people. One of the biggest problems we face in Nigeria today is that we are relying only on ?crude oil sales, and we are not investing in other sectors of the economy, yet we have the capacity of becoming one of the biggest economies in the world. We have land suitable for agriculture, sufficient water resources and qualitative manpower that can move things forward. How can you be an oil-producing country, and still import refined crude oil? How can you be an oil-producing country and have no petrochemical industries? How can you be a major gas-producing country and still import fertiliser? How can you be a country that has all the potentials for paper production and still import paper? How can you have eleven sugar sites and still import sugar?
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The sugar sites are based here in the savannah, and some of them have been able to produce enough sugar to supply and export, but they are just lying there. We have so much potential, yet, we have not had leaders interested in harnessing these potentials. People simply aspire to be heads of state, without having clear vision of what and who to bring in to move the country forward, and they have made governance an avenue for looting the treasury. Government is the only business that is expanding, because we do not have the right leadership.?
Gen. Gowon did his best, because he was a war leader. He kept the country together, but immediately after that, apart from the brief interlude of General Murtala Muhammed, we have not had a leader patriotic enough to know where to touch and to expand Nigeria and build the country. People who are greedy for power, incapable of leading this country are the ones at the helm of affairs.?
The problem does not always have to do with the kind of government. Countries like South Korea have been moved forward by the military. There is no reason why we should have a pathetic leadership in this country. I have not seen the leadership that will move this country forward. Nigerians just have to come together and decide on ?how to produce a more productive leadership.?
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Some people think that a parliamentary system of government would have been the way out. Some are even calling for a uni-cameral legislature. Do you subscribe to that?
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No, I don’t. I believe that it is not necessarily the system of government that is precipitating the problem we have today. If the democratic system has worked in other developing countries, Brazil being an example, then I think it will work in Nigeria too. In Brazil, they have a very viable presidential system of government. There are many other developing countries with thriving democracies. Truth is, the leadership of the country has not tackled the issue of economy. The meagre resources available, either at the state or local levels, have made politics become viable. If the economy were expanding, there are many people who would want to go and do something else, but because the economy is not expanding, people see government as the only avenue for earning a living. That, I think, is the tragedy of our own development. The presidential system can work very well, if the economy is expanding, because politics has a foundation. You don’t build politics on an economic system. People talk about systems of government: the multi-party system, but what about China? It is the fastest growing economy since 1978, experiencing a double-digit growth. What system of government do they run?
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Yet, people come here, mislead us, and tell us that what you need is privatisation and all that stuff. The fact of the matter is that most of those Chinese enterprises are state-controlled, but the leadership is honest, visionary and patriotic. They want to make sure that China moves forward, and that has been happening since 1978. If you look at the history of China, before the Communists took over in 1948, it was basically a backward country that got to the point of being invaded and taken over by the Japanese. Though she experienced such trauma, ?she re-emerged in 1948 and experienced all sorts of difficulties, as she journeyed to become a dominant world economy.?
People naively condemn communism and allege that it has failed, yet 1.3 billion Chinese are pushing their country to become the dominant economic power in the world. We have to sit down and engage ourselves in a debate, have respect for intellectual power, (intellectuals are not even respected). Aliko Dangote and Femi Otedola are the heroes of the young generation of Nigerians, not great intellectuals; not the innovators. Unless we redress our steps, we would be treading a very dangerous route.
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?Do you subscribe to the persistent calls by some for a Sovereign National Conference?
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?We have a National Assembly. If the democratic content is deepened, everything can be discussed at the National Assembly. The problem is that, as I said, intellectual debate is dying in Nigeria. People are no longer able to exchange ideas vibrantly. When we were young, people who inspired us were not the millionaires; not the Fajemirokuns of this world. They did not inspire us. Our inspirations came from the great minds of the land. I think that it is intellectual laziness that is making some angry people to talk about a ‘sovereign national conference’. All those issues that they talk about can be debated on the floors of the National Assembly.?
I was once a university academic, a former President of the Senate, a minister in four different ministries, yet nobody has ever invited me to come and give a lecture even now in the country. The universities do not encourage debates anymore. That is their role. If you look at what happenes in places like Princeton, Harvard, Columbia and so forth, even the President is invited by the student union to come and give a lecture and they engage him in a debate. So, why are these academic centres not taking their responsibilities seriously?
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?The people calling for the Sovereign National Conference are also intellectuals?
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We are a free society, so people can initiate national conferences. It is a constitutional provision for people to express themselves freely.
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How do we make the centre weak? ? ?
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It is not the issue of making the centre weak, rather, it is one of making the federating units strong. We don’t need to make the centre weak, we need the federating units to be strong and viable. None of them, besides coming to collect from the federation account, is investing in the economies of their own federating units, to make their economies strong and largely independent of the federation account. Why don’t they generate their revenues. How many of them generate N1bn in a month? It is because they don’t invest. Whatever they collect, they only re-distribute or steal most of the money. Most of the states spend all that money on themselves, so it is the issue of re-investing and expanding the economy, because once you do that, it will begin to address insecurity in the country.
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?Sir, that takes us to the contentious issue of the Sovereign Wealth Fund, which the governors are yelling and kicking against . . .
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?They are ignorant. The governors are ignorant of what a Sovereign Wealth Fund is. It does not belong to the Federal Government. It belongs to the Federal government and all the federating units. Whatever it earns or generates, it will still be shared by the federating units.?
The Kuwaiti Sovereign Fund is so huge that even without the oil, Kuwait will be able to move forward. Many countries set up a sovereign fund. Their attitude is that anything that comes into the Federation Account should be shared and it is wrong, because when this money is shared, they have more revenue to execute some projects in the states and some of them will have more money to steal. The truth of the matter is that a country like Nigeria should not only have a sovereign fund, but be able to invest in those areas that will expand the economy, both at the federal and state levels. When you build a Sovereign Wealth Fund and a difficult period comes, it is shared according to the provisions in the constitution. The governors have the mentality that any revenue accruing from oil should be shared immediately in their own time, but how about the future?
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?In other words, you are saying you are in full support of the Sovereign Wealth Fund??
Yes, that is what many civilised countries are putting in place.
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? . . . and your advice to the governors?
The governors should know that governors come and go, but Nigeria remains. We have future generations that will still have to run the country. If you are in government, you have to realise that you are there as a temporary servant, not to stay forever, and that the nation is more important than any governor. The community of states which they administer are more important than their own comfort. They must consistently think of the future generations and not their pockets.
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?What is your advice on how to cut the cost of governance in Nigeria??
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Our Presidential system is modeled after that of the United States, yet that country has just about 20 departments or ministries and the cost of governance is not as high as it is in Nigeria. . . ? Well, I need to sit down and statistically consider what people look at. You see, there is a lot of public anger today about the expenditures by the National Assembly, but I have not reviewed it. I cannot give an informed commentary on that. In this interview, what I have tried to emphasise is the expansion of our economy. Our economy is not expanded. It has only contracted over the years. If you look at our production levels in agriculture, industries, education, health and commerce is disappointing. All our industrial complexes in this country are virtually dead. The idea of privatisation has not helped to achieve the desired aim of industrialisation.?
People talk of our mineral sector, which is very capital intensive, but where is the private sector that is supposed to invest in the mineral sector, which is very important, because we have several mineral resources.?
People are talking about the power sector, the sale of distribution lines and all that, but I don’t see the power sector which we expect to develop and help the economy expand. The state has ?a central role to play in a developing economy. When the economy expands and the state realises that there are certain areas it cannot continue to hold on to, then it will begin to devolve to the private sector. In every developing economy, the state has a key role to play.?
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When I was minister of industries, I studied how eleven developing countries fund industries in their countries, and realised how the Bank of Industry of Brazil worked in tandem with the government to put in $25bn, which was loaned to industrialists at a very low rate of interest. That is when I pulled together three banks and took it to the president at the council and the council approved, and we took a bill to the National Assembly, and we established the Bank of Industry.
?The stipulations in the law were very clear, but where are you going to get $25bn to invest in your industries? Presently, the economy is not being expanded, so the high cost of governance will continue to be there. ? ? ??
People talk of low cost of governance in America, but of those 15 to 20 ministries they have, do you know their staff strenght? when ?any elected, American government is leaving, they leave with about 2,000 people. A single department has several people and what you call ‘junior ministers’. Every department has secretaries, undersecretaries, deputy secretaries and so on. The congress and the Senate have several support staff working for them.
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The difference between Nigeria and the United States is that while their economy is largely productive, ours is not. Never mind that expenditures on wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and other senseless wars waged in the world by America continue to gulp huge budgets and their debts are piling, the economy of America continues to be productive.
?Since 1941, America has fought the Second World War, the Korean war, and so on. Presently, there are over 80,000 American troops in Korea. There are about 2.1 million troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and other places, with massive expenditures which is costing America about $3 to $4trn, but it does not affect them much, because all sectors in America are productive. ? ? ?
?If Nigeria really wants to move forward, we must sit down and properly study our system and make proper adjustments. For example, why has nobody come out with a study of expenditure in government over, at least, the last 10 years? All the Boko Harams of this world are as a result of lack of economic development.?
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What is your impression of the Jonathan administration?
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I really don’t know what that government is doing, I never supported Jonathan. I did not believe he has the capacity to rule Nigeria. I still believe he has no capacity to rule Nigeria, because he has no preparation for it. There is no direction in the Jonathan administration. Even those who supported him are regretting it, but I am happy I didn’t. He is not tackling the issues in the country.
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?The President has complained of some ‘goliaths’ who are fighting him and some other impediments that need to give way. What do you say??
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?Ask the people who voted for him. I did not vote for him, because I believed he is ill equipped to rule Nigeria. I knew him as deputy governor, and then he did not show much promise. When he became governor by default, all the assessments, including diplomatic assessments, said he was the weakest governor. That this same man was imposed on Nigeria as president is a tragedy and we are suffering. The whole problems we have in this country today is because we don’t have a president who can speak to inspire confidence. I don’t believe in Jonathan.
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?He thinks there are some people who are throwing the spanner into the works . . .
?Well, let him do the good work first, then we will applaud him. I am an objective person. If he does well I will give him credits. Yesterday I had a discussion with a friend of mine who is ?vehemently anti-IBB (former Head of State), but he turned around and said, ‘At least I like the universities of agriculture which he established’. A leader should be able to do one or two things to inspire confidence or credit. There is tremendous insecurity in the country, our economy is at a stand-still and our foreign policy is ruderless. You can see the mess we did on Libya, instead of awaiting the position of the African Union (AU), we went the pro-American direction, without looking at the complexities of the issue and our domestic situation. We are still having difficulties wriggling out of that situation created by the blowing up of the United Nations. Many countries have decided not to send more people to Nigeria. They have opted for the wait-and-see attitude.?
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Are these not indicators that the country might end up ?a failed state?
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?No, Nigeria will not be a failed state. We usually go to the brink and come back. We went to the brink with the Civil war, Abiola’s election and came back. Some of us were opposed to the nullification of those elections and we went close to the cliff, but we came back again.?
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?What is your assessment of the Gabriel Suswam administration in Benue ?
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Suswam is a disaster. I did not support him in the last elections, and if you go to the state, everybody will tell you that I had a vision. I ?watched him closely as a young man in the National Assembly and it was wrong for him to emerge governor.?
Those who assisted him to be a governor are now regretting, because he is a complete disaster. he lost ?the last election completely, and that is why the people are vehement ?in their demand for justice.
Going by the ruling at the Court of Appeal and the tribunal, it is very sad. I think the judiciary is not helping the course of justice in Nigeria. The PDP administration does not want the case to be heard at all, because the evidence is just too overwhelming.
The ACN candidate, Professor Steven Ugbah, won the election hands down. It is not even an issue for debate, but they should allow the Supreme Court to rule on the case. I believe that if the Supreme Court rules that the ACN did not win the case, we will wait for the next election. There is no question, whatsoever, in my mind that the Suswam administration is a monumental disaster. Suswam is not good enough to be governor.
?. . . and the trial of Bola Tinubu?
Bola Tinubu is a dogged fighter. I know him; he is my friend. The government of Jonathan thinks that by harassing him, they would weaken the opposition, but I don’t think they can succeed. ?
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